Book: “The Road” Essay: “The Hell of Treblinka” Instigator: Eric
Here is our entry for round 1:
Etiquette:
We have some diverse opinions in our group. It is important to be respectful of
all perspectives. Obviously no personal attacks. It is great to give differing
views just be respectful in presentation. Remember on-line statements may sound
more harsh than in person. So, bear that in mind. Rather than saying "I
think you are wrong" in response you may want to say something like
"you make an interesting point. However, I look at it this way..."
Definitely you should not say something like "anyone who thinks that way has poop
for brains." or something like that. Finally, on the reverse side of
things also remember that on line communication can sound harsher than
intended. So please take any responses in the most positive light.
The Reading: The Road by Vasily Grossman. Essay: “The Hell of Treblinka” pages 116 – 162...
Okay Eric: Kick things off by posting the first comment! Others please follow suit responding to Eric's comment. :-)
13 comments:
Well, that was hard to read. And I must admit that more than once I questioned why John picked this essay to read. I still don’t know Johns reasons, but Grossman himself said:
“It is the writer’s duty to tell the terrible truth, and it is a reader’s civic duty to learn this truth.”
So I guess you off the hook John.
Before church this morning I was reading the part about the walk to the last stop on the death march, the death chambers. He speaks of the amusement of the guards to plight of the prisoners and of one particular guard who would pick up children swing them around and slam them on the ground and of the guards beating the prisoners with whips and how some guards would kill children with hammers. On top of that, at the end they would let the dogs lose to attack the prisoners. So, I had these thoughts rolling around my head when we went to church. One of the songs we sang this morning had a line that went something like this: “as long as I’m breathing, I’ve got a reason to praise the lord”. I thought to myself that’s easy to sing and in America not that hard to live out. But what if I ever had to go through what the Jews went through at Treblinka could I find a reason to praise, watching my child get slammed to the ground or my mother being torn apart by dogs. I wonder.
And then the message was on Romans 5 where in verse three Paul says, “but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope.” I know Paul suffered a lot so he knows what he is talking about. But for myself if I were in Treblinka could I find hope?
And then in verse 8 Paul says, “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” That includes those guards, who the author referred to as beast and barely human. Christ dies for those guards. I have to admit that I don’t like that very much.
A question that comes up a lot when discussing the Nazis is the complicity of so many people with these death camps and all the other atrocities committed by the Nazis. Why didn’t anyone speak up. But as I thought about it its not really that uncommon of a reaction. I broight o my mind the whole “cancel culture” phenomenon where if you spoke out about the wrong thing you could lose your job your money your reputation, friends and family and whatever. So people just kept quiet. Now imagine the threat of being sent to a death or labor camp or being killed outright for speaking against the Nazis.
Another thing I found interesting was Grossman’s take on the cruelty of the Nazis. He says, regarding the guard that slammed the children, “He was a useful, necessary screw in the vast machine of the Fascist State.” And further states, “Their diseased ideology, their pathological psyches, their extraordinary crimes are, however, a necessary element of the Fascist State.” I wonder why this cruelty is necessary for a Fascist State other then to dehumanize the populace so that you can do whatever you want to them and not feel bad about it.
Grossman also points out the irony of the great value the Nazis put on the possessions of the prisoners compared to the zero value they put on the actual lives of the people.
Well, that’s all I have for now. It’s a lot to wrap your head around.
Hello again! I put my reaction in the wrong place before i saw Eric's. Like Eric, it was a tough read, but sometimes you have to bear witness to awful things so they are not forgotten. Yes, it is hard to stomach that even those atrocious Nazis fall under the message "to love your enemy." Jesus often speaks of this, and he knew atrocities, but is Jesus asking too much of some enemies? Does love and forgiveness have a limit? Nevertheless, this was a very engrossing and disturbing essay about a concentration camp I had never heard of. Mr. Grossman drew a very vivid description of the camp and its mechanisms for mass extermination that evolved into the gas chambers and cremation. Particularly horrifying was the process that the condemned went through to be stripped of their humanity and humiliated and brutalized before being gassed. I was glad to hear of uprisings, but it is perfectly understandable that most were numbed and terrorized and confused and psychologically broken. At the end, Mr Grossman marvels at how easily it was done and orchestrated. How chillingly easy. And asks what gives birth to racism? For one race to claim superiority and also claim the right to exterminate another race entirely, and deem others as undesirable and necessary for eradication too. What is to prevent it from happening again?
I am not sure how brave I would be to speak out, especially since I wouldn't want to put my boys in harms way. so maybe just keep quiet since i am not doing anything bad directly, but then I am enabling the bad things, and i am complicit, but my family is safe. Such regimes use familia love against us, puts us between a rock and a hard place. Who wants harm on their family? So we acquiesce.
Hi Eric (and Thomas). Thanks for posting! I will make a quick response with more to come tomorrow. Honestly I was questioning this choice too :-) and I was glad when Grossman provided his rationale which I think has merit. So, glad he let me off the hook. I think Eric, you raised two good points about A) would I be able to maintain my hope in God and Jesus in such an awful situation and B) am I okay with the idea that Jesus died even for the barbarous killers of the camp. I need to mull that over a bit. I hadn't thought at all about the second one. And only a little on the first. I'll try to put some thoughts on those two tomorrow.
At a high level: 3 things jumped out at in this reading...
First Main Thing: General reminder of how awful and inhuman these crimes of the Nazis were. When I don't read about it or see a movie for a while I kind of forget how bad they were.
Second Main Thing: The meticulously thought out, mechanical, systematic, efficient and industrial nature of the German regime to methodically slaughter other humans. They basically planned out a new people killing factory the same way company would mater of factly plan out a new factory to create fence posts or any other product of society. It is difficult to process the coldness of it all.
Third Main Thing: The fact that a prisoner insurgence ultimately brought the whole operation to an end in Treblinka and in other places as well. That was a big surprise to me. That was actually kind of amazing and felt somewhat restorative of hope.
I want to think about a couple things that Eric mentioned and plan to post on that tomorrow some.
And I want to talk about Thomas' "What is to prevent it from happening again?" question tomorrow a little too. I have thought about that one a little.
The why / how to prevent something like this from ever happening again…
On bottom of page 161 and top of page 162 Grossman gives what I think is his idea of the cause… “…the imperialist idea of exceptionalism – of racial, national, and every other kind of exceptionalism.”
I think this is a little simplistic and I think it matters the kind of exceptionalism but I take his point at least a bit. I think the US is exceptional because we created a form of government that has (for the most part) peacefully propagated itself for 230+ years and keeps a mechanism in place that responds to the citizens for which it was set up to serve and it has served as a model for many other countries to successfully follow. I am very proud of that and I think that makes the US exceptional. I think that this kind of exceptionalism is NOT likely to be the cause of awful genocide.
That being said. Here is my theory on how to prevent such awful things…
• Milton Friedman in the 1950s and 60s and beyond was a strong advocate for free market concepts in a time when almost all the “smart” people were against it and thought he was crazy. He stuck to his ideas and eventually his ideas won the day in Reagan revolution when just 10 years prior people would have thought that no one will ever try his ideas.
• When asked back in the 50s and 60s why he kept pushing his ideas when it looked like they had no chance he indicated that someday there will be a crisis and when that happens and people decide that what we are doing is no longer working they are going to look around for any other ideas out there that they might be able to try that might work better. In US crisis of stagflation in the 70s that is exactly what happened. There was a crisis and the nation decided to take up Friedman’s ideas which had been out there but out of favor for decades.
• The point isn’t whether Friedman’s ideas were correct. The point is that minority ideas can suddenly become majority ideas in a crisis.
• I think this is what happened in Germany. They found themselves in a crisis due to a worldwide recession AND unbearable post WWI reparations they were expected to pay. They were being crushed economically and so they began looking around for options to make things better.
• Unfortunately the two main alternative ideas bouncing around in Germany during the 1930s crisis were Communism and Fascism. Fascism with the help of a charismatic, politically sophisticated, and psychopathic leader won the day and as such we get to now read books about death camps like Treblinka. Not good.
My Conclusion: Immoral ideas, no matter how ridiculous, should always be fought even when a tiny minority are espousing them. We need to tamp down immoral ideas NOW. So, that when we find ourselves in a crisis we are less likely to alight on those stupid awful ideas. I think that is the best we can do to try to prevent this kind of awful thing.
Feedback welcome. Does that take have any merit?
I still plan to respond to Eric’s thoughts but will have to be tomorrow.
A quick riff on the Jesus dying even for the guards who daily killed children by striking them with hammers. It is emotionally painful just to types those words. When Jesus is dying for this child killer I think is looking at the whole picture of that person. He is looking at that guys formation in his mothers womb and seeing the DNA assembly and perhaps seeing that there is stuff in his DNA that is going to set him back and he is seeing his growth as a child and perhaps he is abused or bullied and perhaps his home life has negative impacts and Jesus sees what his life could and should be and not what it turned out because of perhaps sketchy genes and bad life experience that leads to his bad decisions. I think Jesus is thinking about the life that should have been for that child killer and not the life he chose to live.
Definitely not fully thought out. Feeback welcome.
Regarding Eric’s Question: “…if I ever had to go through what the Jews went through at Treblinka could I find a reason to praise, watching my child get slammed to the ground or my mother being torn apart by dogs. I wonder. … If I were in Treblinka could I find hope?”
I’m glad Eric asked this question because it “forced” me to think about something I have not thought about much.
Short answer. For myself. Probably not / very doubtful that I would find hope or even more so joy in the face of such retched torment.
Intellectually, I can present the rationale for hope and perhaps even joy:
Revelation 20:11-15 “11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” 21:3-5a: “…3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place[a] of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people,[b] and God himself will be with them as their God.[c] 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” 5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.””
This is the hope that the bad people will be held to account and the followers of Jesus will be vindicated and renewed.
Jesus reiterates this on a personal level that our future is secure in Him that we might have peace in the face of persecution.
Gospel of John 16:29-17:5 --- 16:29… “29 Then Jesus’ disciples said, “Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech. 30 Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God.” 31 “Do you now believe?” Jesus replied. 32 “A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me. 33 “I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”” 17:1-5 --- “After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.""
I agree with the above intellectually but in the actual face of real torment of myself and my family would I actually sense that hope or would I feel a strong sense that God had betrayed me? That God had forsaken me and my family? Frankly I probably would feel forsaken and betrayed.
Now, in the comfort of central heating when the worst persecution I have is a bad day at work when someone doesn’t go along with what I am working on, the best I can “hope” for is that if I ever have to experience the kind of torment described in the “Hell of Treblinka” that God would somehow grant me faith, hope and peace in that moment.
I’m pretty sure I won’t be able to muster it myself.
I didn't read the essay, but the comments are very interesting.
Also, I'm singing on the worship team this week end and one of the sing we are singing is the one Eric referenced. Another line of the song that seems possibly applicable is "praise is the water my enemies drown in".
I think the above was Jessica's post (but it might be Amy. :-)) That song lyric as a very poetic way of saying I need to focus on love and forgiveness and let God worry about bringing any appropriate justice. I like that line a lot. It is very hard to do when someone is attacking you directly.
I just finished reading The Hell of Treblinka. Before reading & responding to any existing comments on this thread, I'd like to share my uninfluenced thoughts.
- The article is a harrowing, yet necessary documentation of the atrocities of mankind
- Leveraging the German's industrious culture & knowledge to operationalize industrial-scale acquisition, termination & disposition of an entire human population was planned. It's not something that simply 'just happened.' It was engineered & designed to happen.
- It made me realize that in today's culture, words like 'fascism' & 'genocide' are thrown around flippantly w/ little grounding in the atrocities those words actually represent. Claims of these nature should be taken with utmost seriousness. It feels like 'boy who cried wolf' when they're used for political game & maneuvering.
- The fact that Poles would end up in Treblinka 1 because of '.. a slip of the tongue, a word overheard on the street, someone else's random denunciation..' gave me tremendous pause. Being able to freely think & freely speak w/o fear is crucial to combat society slipping towards these type of atrocities.
- I don't know how to clearly think about his numerous comments like, "none of these beings was in any way human," as he's speaking about the SS. The fact is, they are humans. Humans are capable of tremendous good & horrendous evil. That's all part of being human & we are faced with choosing what we live out. Yet, it's not beyond me that some number of these SS workers had to feel the morality & pain in what they were doing, & there were many evil forces & tactics at play keeping dutifully carrying out their obligations. This is in no way an excuse for them. I'm simply stating that humans carried out these horrendous acts. Humans are capable of this. And that's terrifying. And we, at an individual level & societal level, must actively choose good over evil.
- Those traveling to their execution paid for the train ticket on the way. I have no words..
- An orchestra played music for arrivals.. again, wild detail. The intentional deception necessary to logistically conduct mass executions is terrifying. Truly insidious.
I'll stop there w/ my opening thoughts & start jumping into the conversation via comments w/ others. I welcome your questions, comments & dialogue!
Hi Steven. I really liked you calling out the fact that Grossman repeatedly referenced the Nazi guys as animals. Something did not seem right about that but I couldn't really put words to it. I think you did a very good job of putting words to it. "I'm simply stating that humans carried out these horrendous acts. Humans are capable of this. And that's terrifying. And we, at an individual level & societal level, must actively choose good over evil. " I think that is 100% correct. Calling the bad guys animals in some way takes the pressure off of each of us to always be vigilant to examine our own propensities and that of our society. Thanks for calling this out.
Hi Steven! I had the same uncomfortable feeling about him calling the Germans animals. Like you said, they are human too. And like what John said, it takes some onus off individual introspection because we are not like them, so we don't have to think we may be capable and culpable for equally heinous things. The atrocities at treblinka are not new. Every era is capable. The SS were human. The perpetrators in Rawanda were human, as well as in the former Yugoslavia. Like Steven said, that humans are capable of this is terrifying. We must keep vigilant.
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